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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
yani dumyat Minmatar purple pot hogs	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:52:00 - [1] Originally by: Pohbis There's is not a single missile-boat, were people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are. Hawk (After Nozh reads this sense and succumbs to the common sense within) Sig_________________________________________________________________________________ My alliance, corp, psychiatrist and parole officer claim no responsibility for my actions on these forums.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.04.30 02:47:00 - [2] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: scunner funk it comes to something when a 20 mill isk crow has problems breaking the tank on a 500k isk frigate. Also I just had to bring this up to have a laugh at it. Have you ever actually flown anything with light missiles? Afterburners never saved any of the frigates I met. If you're talking from personal experience I suggest you get your skills past II. I'm disappointed, your posts are usually better thought out than this. I've spent much time extolling the virtues of the crow as an AF killer but it doesn't remove the fact that light missiles get a huge reduction in damage against AB frigates. I have lvl 5 skills and while 500k isk frigate may have been an exaggeration you're talking about a weapon that is designed to kill frigates but is only fitted to ships who don't operate in web range. Try fighting another interceptor in a light missile / disruptor crow and then check your damage logs, the result is an embarrassment. Try fighting a smart AB ishkur pilot and you'll realize that he can go a looooong way before your dramatically reduced damage gets through his tank. Some damage reduction fine but 72% damage reduction against a MWD claw? LM ships are not pwnmobiles, you have a good chance of someone hitting you with an overheated scram and pay a heavy fitting price for your range advantage (read massively reduced tank), is it asking a lot to do more than 30 DPS to targets in the same ship class as me? Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.05.01 10:39:00 - [3] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington walking a very fine line between balanced and making the Crow seriously OP ...dropping the grid need from 8 to 6. 8 I can't see LM ships becoming OP by increasing the Ev/Er a bit, the crow is so flimsy that even T1 frigs like the rifter have considerably more tank n gank if they land a scram on it. Even if you drop the grid a bit an LM kezzie isn't going to have more than a basic tank, that plus it's slow speed make it pretty vulnerable. The only ship that might be able to field lights and a decent tank is the hawk and if there was ever a ship in need of a buff it's the hawk. Is it obvious that I'm running out of things to say about rockets? Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.05.02 13:30:00 - [4] Billy Crocket had a rocket in his pocket but when he tried to knock it he couldn't find the socket. Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.04 20:08:00 - [5] The "torpedo solution" involves giving rocket ships a similar level of paper DPS to that of blasters and is named after the changes they made to torps in QR, it has nothing at all to do with making rockets in to anti cruiser weapons. I like this solution and to explain why I'll start with this statement: "Rocket ships should be able to compete with but not be more powerful than their turret counterparts." (TL;DR If you only increase Ev and Er rockets will suck monkey balls against AF's or other well tanked frigates) There's two ways to make rockets more powerful, you can either increase the hit quality (increase Ev/Er) or you can increase the base damage. Neither of these choices are perfect and will have different effects depending on which ship classes you look at: Rockets Vs Interceptors: Against small, fast frigates an increase in hit quality will have more impact than an increase in base damage. This is because if you have a paper dps of 100 but are are only doing 25 dps to the target then doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out. If we take the same rocket ship doing 100 dps on paper but instead of doubling the base damage we increase the hit quality to the point where no web is needed to hit an interceptor for full damage the effective DPS is 100. Against small, fast frigates increasing the hit quality will buff rockets more than an increase in base damage would. Rockets Vs AF's: Against relatively big, slow frigates the situation is reversed. If the rocket ship gets its base dps doubled from 100 to 200 but still has the current Ev and Er chances are you'll be doing over 150 applied dps in a combat situation. If instead of doubling the damage you increase the Ev and Er to the point where you can hit interceptors without using a web, the rocket ship will be doing 100 applied dps against an AF. Against big, slow frigates increasing the base damage will buff rockets more than an increase in hit quality would. I'm sure you all understand the above concepts, it's not rocket science or anything. Things get a little more complicated once you start doing turret comparisons however. A turret interceptor involved in a high speed dogfight with another ceptor will have massive fluctuations in its applied dps and can easily lose half its paper dps to tracking and falloff. The same interceptor fighting an AF should lose way less dps due to its ability to keep at its optimal range. While the dps turrets lose to tracking and falloff is going to vary greatly dependent on the game situation it's true to say that smaller, faster ships will take less turret damage than bigger, slower ships but a smart pilot can manipulate transversal to their advantage. This is the main reason for the superiority of turrets over rockets and brings me back to the original statement, "rocket ships should be able to compete with but not be more powerful than their turret counterparts." If you don't increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets then they will always suck against AFs, if you do increase the damage to make them competitive against AFs you can not increase Ev/Er too much or rockets will become overpowered. The problem is that rockets do consistent damage irrespective of angular velocity so pilots have no way of manipulating their opponent to increase their DPS, combine this with the massive variations in speed between different frigates and it becomes clear the only way you can bring rockets in to line with turrets is to increase their DPS and force rocket users to carry a web. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 01:25:00 - [6] Are you two smoking crack? I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out." Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps. A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. No it wouldn't for two reasons: 1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS? 2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 10:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it. Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass. If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Not only did I say this in my post at the bottom of the last page but I said it in two different ways in case the concept was hard to understand. Originally by: yani dumyat turrets....a smart pilot can manipulate transversal to their advantage. This is the main reason for the superiority of turrets over rockets ...The problem is that rockets do consistent damage irrespective of angular velocity so pilots have no way of manipulating their opponent to increase their DPS I've used rockets in game as well as testing them against a variety of targets in fights we staged specifically for the purpose of verifying the missile spreadsheet. What I lack is combat logs from turret users, it's easy enough to calculate that X turret will do Y damage in Z situation but harder to work out how often those situations occur in game. My own experiences of turrets are heavily biased towards autocannons so I can't say my logs are representative of turret users. As for exact numbers I'll post them when I've got my spreadsheets in front of me. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent. Paper range is not the same thing as in game range. Launch vector and target vector can dramatically influence range. Good point about the Ev/Er balance affecting the TP / web balance but I'd have bones with this statement: Originally by: Dreed Roberts So really any boost to rockets should be given to all other missiles or they will then be unbalanced against other missile types. This would be true if all ship classes were the same but they're not. Cruisers and up rarely fit afterburners for pvp so arguing about AB vagas is stupid, when was the last time any of you saw a vaga with an afterburner? Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.05 12:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Deva Blackfire actually im not sure if i understand the origin of DRF correctly. Is that another independent stat on every missile type or is it derivered from Er/Ev? Not sure how CCP originally came up with the DRF numbers but it can certainly be used as an independent stat, 3 Seems a surprisingly high number for rockets and I'm pretty sure any sensible solution will involve dropping the drf. I'll post numbers this evening, as much as the mud slinging is amusing I'll try and keep it to the bounds of a sensible discussion ^_^ Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington To reiterate: focusing completely on damage instead of a healthy balance between damage and velocity would produce tech 1 frigates that deal damage on par with stealth bombers. To reiterate: At no point have I ever advocated such a thing, why are you so fixated on proving that doubling the base damage without changing the Ev is a bad thing when I've only ever stated that this would be a bad thing? _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.07 19:28:00 - [10] I've done some in game testing to provide data on the damage reduction against orbiting ships, the spreadsheet can be downloaded at http://www.4shared.com/file/4eFV-YTR/rockets_again.html (can't linkify it because the forum censors the address ) Originally by: Notes I found Stafen's modifier to be slightly out so changed it from 0.9175 to 0.215, this brought the spreadsheet in line with the results of in game testing, the original modifier is noted at the top of the spreadsheet in case you want to change it back. Minmatar ships were used because my toon with lvl 5 navigation skills only flys matari ships. You can alter the damage comparison chart by entering a new number in the "% change" column, the top number will alter rocket damage and the bottom number will alter turret damage. I've suspected for a while that people have been taking Stafen's original spreadsheet then checking EFT to get the velocity and sig radius of a frigate and dropping it in to the spreadsheet. This tends to produce unrealistic numbers because orbit speeds are much lower than straight line speeds. EG: Webbed AB rifter in a straight line gets 37% damage reduction Webbed AB rifter orbiting at 7,500m gets 37% damage reduction Webbed AB rifter orbiting at 500m gets 20% damage reduction This has significant implications when trying to work out the stats rockets should have. If the rifter in the above example wants to get the full 37% damage reduction it will have to sit out at 7,500m with barrage and will be doing roughly 50% less damage in game than it's EFT damage with RF EMP loaded. A quick analysis of my damage logs shows that when flying rifters with RF EMP I lose about 20% of my potential DPS to tracking and falloff, that is in no way a scientific number and was only tested for 3 fights plus I've not got perfect gunnery skills so comments from other turret users would be appreciated. For now I'm working on the premise that to compare rockets with turrets I need to reduce the EFT damage of turret ships by 20% to compensate for tracking and falloff. After playing with the spreadsheet for a while I've come to the conclusion the way to make rockets competitive but not overpowered would be: Increase base damage by 45%* Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 *The 45% number was based on reducing the EFT damage of turret ships by 20% so if I'm wrong on that estimate the 45% figure will be wrong too. Try putting those numbers in the spreadsheet and see what you think, It means rocket AFs will still have slightly lower applied DPS than turret ones, which is as it should be because rocket AFs get a tanking bonus. Afterburners are still effective tanking modules but webbed AB frigates will be hit for full damage if they orbit at 500m and get a slight damage reduction if they go in a straight line. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."

yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.08 15:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Maeve Kell isnt a weapon system that can hit while you fly like 15 km/s imba? I wholeheartedly agree, as a solution to this nano ships should be made fast enough to outrun all turret ammunition. Due to turret damage being instantaneous this may result in dramiels traveling backwards in time. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.10 10:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Braitai I heard a rumour that rockets were still broken, C/D? C In recent testing it was shown that a eunuch could shoot further than rage rockets. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.11 11:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: yani dumyat snip Holy Christ! Someone is finally looking at more than raw stats! Apocalypse is nigh, C/D? C, I will be the hookbill of the apocalypse riding along side ECM, Nano and Nerfbat. Originally by: Allen Ramses The actual base damage increase is 50% (for light missiles, as well). The EV becomes somewhat redundant after DRF comes into play, and we don't want to achieve 100% damage so easily. Ceptors should be very hard to hit, but ABing ships should not. AB was intended as a tanking mod during the QR changes and has a lot of drawbacks for ships that only have 3 mids and need to tackle stuff. These screenshots show what would happen if the numbers were altered as I suggested: rifter.jpg claw.jpg damage chart.jpg Ev is certainly not redundant even with a DRF of 1.5, I think the % of damage reduction is about right in those pics but I'm not greatly confident about damage reduction of turrets so 45% base damage increase to rockets may be wrong. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.11 12:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Braitai 50% increased damage for lights? Great, so AML Caracals will own frigates EVEN HARDER than they do already. Balancing lights is actually quite difficult because of the fact that they're used in AML launchers as well. That's straightforward enough to do simply by fiddling with AML/SML RoF. true enough I guess but that would mean SML's have a higher ROF than AML's. Fiddling with lights will be problematic. Getting even close to the theoretical damage/range of lights using beams/arty/rails requires t2 ammo that messes with your tracking, so it's not as if other long range weapons are clearly out in front of lights. The problem isn't AML's it's destroyer class ships - flycatcher with 50% more damage on light missiles . If you've ever tried to put arties on a rifter or claw you'll know that LM ships are in a different league when it comes to ranged frigates, on the other hand if you boosted small arties to the point where an arty claw was viable then there'd be some absurd thrasher fits going about. I'd love to see more viable ranged frigates than just the crow, harpy (and to some extent ishkur) but it would need a complete reworking of the destroyer class so we're getting a bit off topic. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:58:00 - [15] Originally by: van Uber Don't panic, there has only been eighteen months, three expansions and numerous patches since rockets got borked in their latest iteration in Quantum Rise. We don't want CCP to rush in to anything. After all, bombs took 24 months to fix, Black Ops are still broken and they came with Trinity so rockets are just following the curve here. The poor hawk was born disabled but despite CCP having access to the best drugs and medicine they continue to let it suffer and have done for years. _______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.18 10:45:00 - [16] rocketing back to page1 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.19 19:54:00 - [17] Edited by: yani dumyat on 19/05/2010 19:58:20 Originally by: Dreed Roberts Taking bets. Give you 5:1 for rockets after T3 frigates, 2:1 for rockets fixed with T3 and 20:1 for rockets fixed before T3 frigates. Given that your post is number 666 I'll bet 100 severed heads on rockets being fixed with T3 (2:1) and have a wee punt of 15 sacrificial virgins on rockets being fixed before T3 frigates (20:1). _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.27 20:13:00 - [18] CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 3 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.05.28 14:21:00 - [19] Originally by: Number 17 Increase Ev to 120 m/s Increase load to 80 units Without the damage increase and DRF reduction rockets will still suck monkey balls, the maths was in this post. True about the clip size though so I'll revise it to: Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot of people happy by doing 4 simple things: Increase base damage by 45% Increase Ev to 120 m/s Decrease DRF to 1.5 Increase clip size by at least 100% _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar The 23rd Sense	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:14:00 - [20] So I go away for a month and first thing I do on getting home is check this thread in case CCP....um I should have known better shouldn't I? Originally by: Elgaris Dukor I highly doubt that any dev is still reading this thread. No but they read this forum, this thread is sitting there on page 1 and they ignore it in the same way a student ignores the washing up. Just like said washing up the rocket issue has gone mouldy and started talking to itself. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:38:00 - [21] If I lock it and fire a rocket will I be able to pop it? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:36:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Chronotis We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then Many thanks for taking time to reply to this thread (and well done for not swearing at us, I'd be tempted if I was in your position). Something that has been noted many times by engineers is that rocket science itself is not particularly complicated, it's things like not bumping in to satellites and trying to urinate in zero gravity that are difficult. What your post seemed to convey is that you've not done the rocket science but you've made great advances in urination. Please take that with humour, I'm very much looking forward to incarna, dust and the general feel of being in a universe that's got more than just pod goo fanatics however this thread is not asking for anything complicated. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.13 23:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac A blue has posted, the world is not ending! Or wait... Chronotis, are you the harbinger of doom? Anyway... Yeah nice to know rockets are getting love, though some info would be good (and it'd be nice to know if there's somebody working on AFs as well, since they are affected by rockets too...) To be fair he did a good job on bombers (though I'd still like to see a cruise subsystem for T3 frigs ) If you are doing AF's Chronotis then please for the love of god give the hawk the same 7 mid/low slots as every other tackle AF.....and working rockets. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.15 11:57:00 - [24] Originally by: CCP Chronotis If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. Just do it, you know it's the right thing to do _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.17 10:30:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes.....rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. Could you define 'larger ship classes' please. The ship class up from a raven is a carrier so I assume you mean that torps are for chewing through bigger slower ships in the same class, such as plated geddons? Or have I got the definition wrong and you're saying that rockets are intended to be effective against cruisers rather than heavier frigates like AF's? Originally by: CCP Chronotis perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. +1 When flying a light missile crow it's quite distressing the way your damage just disappears if your target starts afterburning in a straight line, would be nice to get a little boost here Many thanks again for your work, please can we see something on sisi soon. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.17 18:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Gypsio III Torps have the explosion radius to deal full damage to tier 3 BS, so it seems to me that that's what "larger ships" means there. Yeah that was my guess, when I mentioned bringing rockets in to line with torps back on page 19 Duchess and Deva spent the next page shouting about 400dps kestrels, just want to make sure of the facts before I upset them again :) Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: CCP Chronotis If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. I don't think this will solve problem with rocket frigates. For bigger ships, that'd work. Depends how it's done, I personally think Chronotis is on the right track. Explosion radius is fine but there's a huge variation in speed between the fastest and slowest frigates, you can make rockets effective against such a wide range of targets by dropping the DRF. This leaves you with explosion velocity and base damage to play with. Low explosion velocity and high damage will be devastating against AF's while allowing interceptors to evade some of the damage, high explosion velocity and low damage will do less damage to AF's but more to interceptors. Because a rocket pilot can not manipulate transversal to their advantage the high explosion velocity and low damage option will always leave the rocket pilot at a disadvantage. EG1: A claw is orbiting a malediction at 500m. Both ships have MWD and scram, neither have a web. For the malediction to hit the claw for 100% damage would require: DRF = 1 Ev = 190 Er = 20 Damage = +20% Ok it's a slightly extreme example but consider for a moment what would happen with those changes in place. Rockets would hit any AF or T1 frig for full damage every time so would need to have less raw damage than a turret ship because they don't lose damage through tracking and falloff. Now lets look at duchess's list of rocket ships: Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill Notice how many slow ships like the hawk and vengeance are on there? Sure the crow's pretty fast but in many cases the equivalent matari ship could just click keep at range 500m and apply full DPS to you. By making rockets high explosion velocity and low damage the only way to out DPS an equivalent turret ship is to keep them at the edge of scram range and force them in to falloff, guess what, only range bonused ships with faction rockets can do this, not to mention they'd need a web (I may be mistaken but there seemed to be quite a lot of comments in this thread about forcing rocket ships to carry a web). Now for a more torpish low explosion velocity, high damage option: DRF = 1.5 Ev = 100 Er = 20 Damage = + 65% This would put rocket ships about on par with lasers for raw DPS (crow 160dps / crusader 166dps) Without speed mods a jaguar and hawk would be doing about the same DPS at 500m, if the jag fits an AB or the hawk fits a web they can tip the fight in their favour. Suddenly the fight becomes paper rock scissors instead of the jag simply approaching to 500m and overloading its guns. Similarly in a crow vs claw fight you get big variations in DPS for both ships depending on range, speed and fit so the fight would be decided by player skill, rather than a simple mechanism of the claw trying to get as close as possible to maximize its firepower. TL;DR Chronotis has got it right with the torps philosophy, we just need to see it on sisi now _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.18 02:56:00 - [27] Edited by: yani dumyat on 18/07/2010 02:58:31 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its decent idea but as previous issues: would possibly need to change (nerf) kestrel. And maybe change crow somehow. If you have spare time try and run more-less the DPS amount (kinetic/other) on all ships which use rockets (include 1 damage mod on all, just for comparison). Yeah it would require some ship rebalancing, 5% kinetic damage and 10% missile velocity for the kestrel would seem like the caldari norm, though a 5% damage and 5% Ev bonus could be interesting . Also seconding that we should give a big middle finger to the obsolete tier system. This is a screenshot of my damage chart with turrets set to 100% and rockets set to 165%, it's far from complete but does give a rough idea. The crow looks pretty balanced to me, if anything it's the malediction that might be a little bit overpowered. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for Ev/Er/DRF stats. For example malediction: 33 sig, 1460with AB. Gets hit by 60% of the DPS. With single web it jumps to 80%. With MWD its 56% and 73% respectively. Kinda funny that with those changes MWD is better at tanking rockets than AB (ofc on ceptors with sig reduction). For dramiel (clear fit, t2 ab or just mwd): AB 58% AB+web 77% MWD 73% (IF rockets actually connect with dram - at those speeds dram should outrun them) MWD+web 96% Looks decent. Ceptors can MWD tank (their role), other frigs need AB. I need to think a little more about... going to sleep for now. It's worth noting that a ship orbiting at 500m is significantly slower than one traveling in a straight line, two ships of similar speed orbiting each other will also adjust their orbit a lot which can reduce the speed too. Scram and web would be mandatory for fighting interceptors however - return of the plate fit rocket crow maybe? A MWD dram can outrun all rockets apart from velocity bonused faction ones which can hit if he's in a 2,000m orbit or tighter (It's knowing this sort of thing that makes me such fun at dinner parties). I'm sure the numbers aren't perfect but it's hard to know for sure just by looking at a spreadsheet. Originally by: Roemy Schneider oh dear chronotis on the job? It's all good as long as he drops his DRF's and lets us play with his sisi EDIT: Originally by: Braitai Stuff You make some good points, I need my bed however so I'll sleep on it :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.20 17:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Speaking of missiles in more broader terms, I don't really get why the shorter range missiles are supposed to be used against bigger classes of ships. Now, I'm fine with trying to diversify the weapons, but if you look at short range turrets, they not only are good against the same class of ships, but are usually better than their long range counterpart at dealing with smaller classes due to the improved tracking... Because if short range missiles hit every time against smaller ships their DPS would have to be appalling for them to be even remotely balanced. This gives you the choice of rockets being good against interceptors (but lacking damage against bigger ships like AF's) or rockets having enough damage against the bigger ship classes like AF (but lacking the Ev/Er/DRF to hit interceptors well). Given the choice I'd rather be able to do turret level damage and have to tackle my target than do carp damage against all targets. I'm really not sure how else to explain this, I feel like a stuck record saying it over and over. Perhaps someone else can find better words? Or correct me if I'm wrong about this? (Totally agree with you about T2 ammo though, amongst other problems the stacked drawbacks in speed/sig is plain crazy) Originally by: Braitai Originally by: yani dumyat Because a rocket pilot can not manipulate transversal to their advantage the high explosion velocity and low damage option will always leave the rocket pilot at a disadvantage. This is not always true. A rocket user can't manipulate transversal to increase DPS, but you can manipulate transversal to decrease incoming DPS. I've already stated in this thread that the rocket Malediction is a very viable dogfighting interceptor. It beats most Claws by making them fight in falloff, and it beats Crusaders by getting under their guns and tanking the rest of their damage. OK fair enough there are situations where you can make a rocket ship work, I can think of fights I've won while flying a hawk, doesn't make rockets or the hawk good though. I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make, perhaps you could clarify in terms of how you would like to see rockets changed? Originally by: Braitai No competent Malediction pilot would allow a Claw to orbit them at 500m, unless the Claw was using Barrage and they wanted to try and take advantage of it's tracking penalty to get under the it's guns. Yeah it wasn't the most realistic example, I used it because I used a claw to test rockets. This is a screenshot of my spreadsheet with the changes I proposed. Full spreadsheet can be downloaded from here: http://www.4shared.com/file/OM-ctG6_/rockets_again.html _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.21 00:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac lower classes of ships can usually outrun you quite easily ...so either you have a mean to tackle them...or they just can gtfo. This I agree with and understand, what I don't get is why you want to be able to hit a ship for full damage if you can't hold it in place and it's just going to gtfo anyway? Braitai made a good post about how a malediction can be used to defeat ships by using their falloff and tracking against them. A hookhill can be similarly effective because of its speed, range and copious midslots. For this reason rockets that could hit interceptors well would need to be very low damage (for comparison an autocannon ship will lose about 50% of its DPS when fighting at the edge of scram range, AB interceptors can almost completely evade lasers by orbiting at 500m) Then you go on to talk about 50km cerbs and I find it hard to follow. There are only 4 rocket ships that can hit outside of scram range - flycatcher, crow, hookbill and hawk. Of those four the hookbill and crow are not slow ships and only the hookbill can fit enough range rigs to make a disruptor/kite setup worthwhile (even then it's debatable and you'd be better with a light missile setup). If I'm being dumb then I apologize but I find your reasoning hard to follow, maybe if you posted numbers it would be a bit less vague. Originally by: Gecko O'Bac In this way you are forcing ships to use webbers/short range scramble even if they, in theory, wouldn't need it for pure damage purposes On the contrary I suggested a setup that would hit an AF for 100% damage unless he fitted an afterburner. If he's going to fit a tanking mod then surely it's only fair that you should have to fit a web? An untackled interceptor would get between 15% and 50% damage reduction depending on fit and orbit range. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.21 11:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Braitai Have you worked out how effective rockets would be vs drones with your changes? I use AC's on my fleet 'diction because it has a long point/scram combo. Webbed drones actually die pretty quickly to rockets but that only works in a tight orbit, in a high orbit they're useless. If someone can tell me the in game speed, sig and orbit distance of drones then I'd be happy to do the maths (warrior II's would probably be best as they seem to be the most common). Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general....Vagabond, for example A normal vaga fit (2 gyros) with phased plasma gets 516 DPS in EFT, in game with barrage from 20km it's more like 300 dps, at forty km you'd be lucky to scratch their paint. Needing to get close up with a web to apply full damage is not a purely missile thing. HAMs are fine. Anyway, I'm sure this thread had something to do with rockets

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 09:37:00 - [31] Without getting sidetracked by the intricacies of Faffy's kills I think it's fair to say that both he and Braitai make a fair point, namely that rocket crows and maledictions are viable ships in the right hands. Dogfighting has always been a battle of the mid slots and the 4/3/3 slot layout shared by both these ships is near perfect for a combat interceptor. There are other rocket ships that are definitely not ok, hawk springs to mind. Originally by: Faffywaffy I will argue similarly that a properly fit and flown rocket Vengeance will hold its ground against many of the more popular assault frigates. The rocket-bonused interdictors are terrible for reasons unrelated to rockets. If this is how you feel then perhaps you could enlighten us by saying exactly which ships need changed and how they should be changed? Maybe if you give us a proposal and some numbers we can debate the validity of changing ships instead of rockets? I am still of the opinion that Chronotis is right about increasing the DPS of rockets and have yet to see a valid counter proposal, it should be noted that when I ran the numbers for increased damage I specifically pointed out the malediction as one of the ships that might need a nerf and others pointed out that a 160dps rocket crow might be a bit excessive. Whichever way it goes it's clear that the problem is a lot more complex than just tweaking the Ev stat like many on the main forums seem to believe, a plain buff to rockets will boost the better rocket ships to the point of being overpowered, whereas not touching them at all will result in abominations like the dual web armour tanked rocket hawk I put together a while ago (bad experiment, don't recommend it ). _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 12:57:00 - [32] Edited by: yani dumyat on 22/07/2010 13:08:34 Originally by: Faffywaffy I haven't looked very extensively into the Hawk, but with 4 midslots, I'm pretty sure something useful can be done with it. There's quite a few things that can be done with it, I've tried most of them and it simply falls short. On paper you'd think it was similar to the vengeance with it's tank bonus and rockets but they're worlds apart, veng is a much better ship (due to resist profile, better tank bonus and slot layout). If you start with a mwd and scram then you're left with 2 slots for whatever combination of web/shield booster/shield extender/cap booster/AB you want (I'll leave out ewar fits for now) The most successful dogfighting fit I've found is MWD/scram/web/medium extender as the capless weapons and tank allow you to neut your opponent. The web is needed to damage to AB ships and provide range control, that leaves you with one mid slot and a damage control left to tank with (the rig slots are used to fill the gaping EM hole) Using a small shield booster in that mid doesn't work, even with the bonus it takes over a minute to be as effective as a medium extender and that's assuming you don't cap out (which you will). The only way to make the boost bonus work is by fitting a cap booster and medium shield booster, this gives you a monster tank but without any range control or meaningful dps you're limited to gang tackle rather than dogfighting. It might make more sense if I compare it to the harpy, both ships have a 5/4/2 slot layout and a range bonus. The harpy deals twice the DPS of the hawk and is not considered overpowered. Edit, if the Hawk is meant to be a low DPS tanky ship then it needs an extra mid, if it's meant to work with the current slot layout then it needs more DPS and the active tank bonus changed to a resist bonus. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.22 15:44:00 - [33] Posters that are too inept to press the hyperlink button annoy me, it's a pet peeve like drivers who don't indicate, people who pick their nose in public and people who voice strong opinions in TSF forum without analysis or numbers to back their argument up. Originally by: Braitai 1 2 3 4 Slicers are currently my favourite thing to kill. Their DPS ends up being about on par with an average 'sader once tracking is taken into account, which isn't enough to break a 'diction's tank. 5 A 13.5 KM warp scrambler means a TE/locus/pulse 'sader has no chance of kiting a 'diction. 6 Armor rep on a 'sader probably isn't the smartest thing in the world I guess but otherwise that's a solid dogfighting fit (if a little none-standard, grid rig+DLP instead of just using gatlings) 7 Notice the lack of speed - 2 aux thrusters and a t2 AB+overload would have turned the tide very quickly. 8 Buff Claws - no really, I actually think they need some love. A falloff bonus maybe. [/pedantic rant] _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.24 11:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Brutus B CCP should throw a party when this fix is done. So should we, assuming AFs and rockets get done at the same time it would be nice to get an AF party going where everyone gets an AF and a bottle of rum, start in low sec and rampage through 0.0 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.25 11:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Just swap the boost bonus for a resist bonus, and it all makes sense. Not really, the fittings would need changed to accommodate an MSE rather than the booster and even then it sucks with low damage and lack of mid/low slots. The AF's with 6 mid/low slots all do 150-250dps and have a utility high slot to spare, the AF's with 7 mid/low slots do 100-200 dps and all apart from the vengeance have a utility high. The hawk has 6 mid/low slots, does about 110 dps and needs a fitting mod for most decent fits. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.01 15:16:00 - [36] When they fix rockets* the decision to remove the split weapons system will turn out to be a blessing, one of the big advantages of range bonused rockets is you can move between 500m and edge of scramble range without reducing your dps. Split weapons remove this advantage. Worm wouldn't seem so bad if the ishkur wasn't so much better, needs something to set the two ships apart. * "A bit of optimism never hurt." Said the dead horse _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:45:00 - [37] This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.01 13:28:00 - [38] What is the opposite of vertigo? I seem to get an apprehensive feeling whenever this thread drops too low on the page and wondered if there is a name for this condition? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.02 07:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac The term you're looking for is OCD :D I believe the correct term is CDO, it's the same disorder but with the letters in alphabetical order LIKE THEY SHOULD BE! _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:55:00 - [40] Edited by: yani dumyat on 07/09/2010 16:03:46 Originally by: CCP Chronotis We'll just go ahead and stop working on these changes siting on our internal servers then shall we if you want to wait till then This was posted by CCP Chronotis on Friday 13th August, I'm not usually superstitious but Friday the 13th is an ominous date and he's not been seen for nearly a month now, should we send out a search party? Edit - added pic cos it always makes me smile _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:12:00 - [41] Good to know you're safe and the Friday 13th gremlins didn't get you Originally by: CCP Chronotis we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi Does it sound wrong if I say I'm looking forward to seeing the devs hot drop their rockets? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.08 00:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac solution! Give everybody amarr and caldari AF skills and make the fleet fight a 500 man ROCKET FRIGATE GRANDE MELEE! Win This ^^ sign me up :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.09 17:36:00 - [43] Question for CCP Chronotis. The rocket changes seemed at one point to be tied in to AF 4th bonus, is this still the case? I'm praying for the day I see AF's get fixed and can stop disturbing you and the rest of assembly hall with my bad attempts at rocket/hawk humour. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:58:00 - [44] Many thanks for the reply. To follow on I do have another question though will understand if you wish to evade or pass on this one, it's a long post but please forgive me as I am trying to communicate rather than rant. Four years ago I was told by a corp mate to train for cruisers because AF's were broken and the forum seemed to agree, now you are telling me that the changes are going to come in a subsequent release so it's fair to say that in total CCP will take five or six years to fix AF's. Last month there was an outpouring of frustration as people got wound up about the 'excellence' issue but I think there was something missing from that debate, namely the roots of our nerdness and what causes us to rage. In the case of AF's I have built spreadsheets and spent hours analyzing the various ships, this is mainly for my own amusement but if you read the forums you'll understand when I say that this behavior is quite prevalent among the eve community. If a dev posted and asked for analysis of any ship or module in the game I guarantee there would be many pages of player made spreadsheets and graphs to wade through. When something directly affects our game experience eve players have a knee jerk reaction that involves analyzing the situation then arguing about it on the forums, this is as much a part of the game as piracy or running missions. The point I'm trying to make is that by taking between two and six years to implement balance changes CCP are creating vast amounts of frustration among the most vocal members of the eve community, the same people who tend to be dominant characters in their corps and spread gossip among blogs and fan sites. At the start of my career I chose to fly caldari and wanted to specialize in frigates, I've spent four years waiting for the hawk to be fixed and CCP have continuously said things like 'it's in the backlog' so I posted my thoughts and assumed the promised changes would appear within the next year. The question is this - Do you understand why I feel frustrated? PS This is not a dig at you, you did a good job on bombers and I have every confidence you will do a good job on rockets. If I have a problem it's that we don't see you more often :) This post is an attempt to communicate the importance players put on finding solutions to problems and seeing them implemented. From a player perspective it is hard to see how a balancing issue could take more than a month to resolve, without the aid of devhax it took me about 8 hours to rigorously test rockets and create a spreadsheet that could tell me the exact damage reduction for any rocket parameters against any given ship at any orbit distance. That's approximately one days work. I know you do care but five or six years to fix AF's looks suspiciously like you don't give a ****. PPS - An active tanked shield tackle AF neeeeeds 5 mid slots. Please for the love of god put me out my misery _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 12:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Proxyyyy I have read this thread from the beginging. The only person that has even came close to having some real insight into the issue, has been Gecko O'Bac. Some others have made sparse comments about fitting issues, but have consistently stayed with the same old "missile velocity" arugments. Your on the missiles velocity bandwagon 24/7. Often you have no-real insight and cont with your linear arguments threw out the entirety of the thread. You can often tell who lacks imagination and putting any effort into anything, because they have no intrest in the Hawk at all; they're to hard to fit compared to a vengeace. I'm not sure what thread you were reading but it wasn't this one. Both the kestrel and hawk have been mentioned quite a number of times and I've posted so often in AF threads about the hawk needing 5 mids that the following comment should need no explanation: Originally by: yani dumyat PPS - An active tanked shield tackle AF neeeeeds 5 mid slots. Please for the love of god put me out my misery That was posted in this thread only a page ago and there has been considerable discussion of the fitting requirements for both rockets and light missiles in regards to how hard they are to fit on the kestrel and other ships. When I posted my spreadsheet of possible rocket changes I included an analysis of how the changes might affect various hulls. Ships such as the flycatcher, malediction, crow and vengeance could become overpowered if you boost rockets without any regard for its effect on various hulls. There was also a lengthy discussion about the rocket malediction and its ability to use an enemies tracking and falloff against them. In terms of the kestrel a number of people, Duchess Starbuckington in particular, have pointed out that we should "give the middle finger to the tier system". If you look at the other T1 missile frigates you'll see that the kestrel has fairly generous fittings for its ship class, if you want to increase fittings on the kestrel then you will also need to boost the other missile frigs. Many have forgotten that the inquisitor even exists. Gypsio described your wish to see greater fittings on the kestrel as an "inane comment" and then stated that it needed an extra mid slot, I took this as a direct reference to the tier system yet you seemed surprised by Gypsio's comment. Perhaps if you'd understood this thread you'd have less need to make such a fool of yourself. In short it's the archaic tier system that needs to be reworked however I shudder to think how long CCP might take over such a large rebalancing task. In the mean time I will be happy to settle for increased rocket DPS so the kestrel can have a bit more cannon to go with its glass. I'd agree with one thing you've said: Originally by: Proxyyyy damage is not so much the issue, but overall viabilty is (more than one contributing factor) The problem is that rocket ships can not be altered in isolation. To alter the kestrel you must rebalance T1 frigs and there have been various threads calling for CCP to investigate the balance of AF and destroyer class ships. Without boosting rockets it will not be possible to balance AF's, to demonstrate this point I will return to the hawk. Af's can be roughly split in to 2 categories: Tackle - 7 mid/low slots, 3 main weapon hard points, 1 utility high, approx 150 dps DPS - 6 mid/low slots, 4 main weapon hard points, 1 utility high, approx 250 dps The hawk has the 5/4/2 slot layout of a DPS AF yet struggles to reach 150 dps. Should rockets be boosted and AF's given a 4th bonus then the hawk could potentially do over 200 dps, under such circumstances giving it 5 midslots could result in the ship becoming overpowered. Until we see what CCP do with rockets it will not be possible to know how the hull should be rebalanced. In short you are correct to say we need to look at the hulls but seem to be ignorant of how a rocket boost is a necessary step towards that goal. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:03:00 - [46] Proxyyyy, as I'm sure you're aware the title of this thread is 'correct rocket explosion speed', it's hardly surprising that we have focused on rockets and their various parameters. Consider for a moment CCP's history in regard to balance issues, the time between a problem arising and CCP fixing it is usually 2 or more years. When they do fix stuff it tends to be done in categories, ie they will alter projectiles, black ops, ECM or some other discrete category. If you expect CCP to go through every single hull that uses rockets and rebalance them around the need for a web then you are living in ga ga land. I'd love to see changes like an extra mid on the hawk and kestrel but you're as well asking for CCP to introduce levitating bears and pink space mushrooms, it's just not going to happen. Originally by: Proxyyyy To over-powered or to under-powered = you cant fix that issue, without looking at the ships themselves I'd agree with this statement 100% but would also point out that the same can be said for many ships in the game, not just the ones that use rockets. What makes you think CCP will suddenly start giving a **** just because you've stated the blatantly obvious fact that a blanket boost to rockets will not resolve balance issues related to the hulls? To be honest I'm very happy to see rockets getting some love and am grateful to the devs for their work. The fact remains however that people have been suggesting changes to both the hawk and the tier system for many years, your arrogance will be ignored in the same way as every one else who has posted on this matter. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:34:00 - [47] Ha ha good post Deva, quoting this bit for truth. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for "i dont care what other people post". Oh you do. A lot. Posting is caring and it seems you care a lot. Also quoting this because it made me lol very hard: Originally by: Proxyyyy i also wanted to get banned, but failed at that. A failed internet hard man, that's pure comedy gold An irony about you trying to destroy this thread is how you've perpetuated the "cycle of agreeing and arguing about the same thing, over and over again." For those of us who enjoy the insults and name calling it has also added some pleasant relief from the drudgery of this thread. Another irony of your attempted thread destruction is that you have correctly identified some hull balance issues, perhaps it will inspire CCP Chronotis to add a mid slot to the hawk rather than forcing us to wait for AF balancing. (I can dream). I wish you all the best in making your dreams of a forum ban come true. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 09:50:00 - [48] On the subject of webs I hope the rocket fix will negate the need for dual webs on any normal fit, most rocket ships can already fit a single web. Assuming that a speed mod and point are mandatory: 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk - can fit a web but only by fitting a passive tank or running active without a cap booster. Vengeance - can fit a web Malediction - can fit a web Crow - can fit a web when plate fit Kestrel - can fit a web when plate fit Breacher - can not fit a web Inquisitor - can not fit a web Flycatcher - can fit a web Heretic - can fit a web Worm - can fit a web Caldari Navy Hookbill - can fit a web Condor - can not fit a web Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin - can fit a web Tristan - can fit a web Eris - can not fit a web Of the four ships that can't fit a web three are victims of the tier system and the fourth is the eris which no one flies either but for different reasons. Plate fitting a kestrel has problems because it's slow as sin and much better off with an MSE, still best of the T1 missile frigs (though that's not saying much). Hawk.....for the sake of your sanity I'll refrain from ranting. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 09:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that had previously been deleted from another post. <3 <3 _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.16 04:03:00 - [50] Originally by: idiot Proxyyyy is serving a 13 day ban (Spank are you proud of me?) Originally by: trolls laser guided rockets By making a statement like "Spank are you proud of me" I can only assume that there was a moment where Spank felt like Don Corleone and said "Yes you may kiss my ring." Proxy kissed said ring and after subjugating his dignity upon the alter of internet fame proceeded to suck deeply upon the ring so he may be blessed with the ability to spew forth the contents of spanks ring upon the forums. Logic is the only thing that counts here. This is not C+P so if you want to play a game of wit then yeah I'll play but don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I refer you to a simple truth of modern life => Geeks Rule. Literally. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.18 21:12:00 - [51] I'd like to see a phalanx of thorny gremlins dance the funky foxfire. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.19 15:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: yani dumyat I'd like to see a phalanx of thorny gremlins dance the funky foxfire. I wouldn't. I'd rage and throw a javelin at them. I'd say touche sir but for the sake of bumping this thread I shall instead call you a CNt. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.20 21:51:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Chronotis a quick update - the first set of balance changes to rockets should end up on sisi next week (possibly earlier but at the very least next week). Adding some appreciation. ^_^ Perhaps we should have a rocket night on SISI? Sunday 26th Sept at 20:00 would be my suggestion. Anyone up for it? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 01:32:00 - [54] please see this thread. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 07:31:00 - [55] _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.21 19:01:00 - [56] Something that worries me slightly is that Chronotis didn't mention DRF. I'll wait till they hit sisi before making any judgments but if the DRF hasn't been modified then a boost to Ev will do very little in terms of reducing the need for a web. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.22 18:04:00 - [57] Originally by: OT Smithers I do not know that there is such a statement. That said, if one were to go to any PvP game on the internet (regardless of genre) and ask the players there to name the most desirable traits for winning, the attributes they list as important or even critical for victory could easily be used as a listing of everything the Caldari lack. Accident? The guys at CCP are professionals. No one at CCP thought that slow ships were better than fast, less drones better than more, delayed DPS better than instant. I could go on, but donÆt need to -- you already know. Does this mean that Caldari are hopeless or useless? Obviously not. They seem to be, as you say yourself, workable. Not sure how long you've been playing but this game used to be called Caldari Online. Ravens were the No 1 most feared battleship, you could stack MWD's and keep pace with your missiles as they launched, thus several volleys of missiles would arrive at the same time in one bbq blob of alpha. There was a time when rifter pilots would see a kestrel and think oh ****. Sometimes I think there should be an eve museum where new players get to see all this stuff and old hands can take a walk down memory lane. The current state of Caldari in pvp is all part of the buff/nerf/fotm cycle that CCP's so fond of. I'm actually quite surprised they managed to implement the QR missile changes without making missiles fotm, usually it's a case of buff lasers (OMG everyone fly amarr now!) or buff projectiles (OMG everyone fly matari now!). Caldari will probably have their day again sometime but having cross trained to fly the other races I'd have to say that people moan too much, all the races are usable and have some good ships to chose from. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.22 23:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Ok, this confirms it. Troll. My money is definately on Proxyyy's alt now - this was just too stupid for words. If it is a proxy alt he's doing better than last time, still perpetuating the thread though. At least it gives us something to argue about till rockets hit sisi. Originally by: OT Smithers So essentially you agree: ItÆs not ôtheir dayö now, and hasnÆt been for so long that it is a common consensus that they are a relatively poor choice for PvP. You're misinterpreting what I said: "People moan too much, all the races are usable and have some good ships to chose from" was meant to point out that forum opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt. Even then I don't think I've seen a thread in the last two years reach any sort of consensus about caldari being poor pvpers. Caldari have got enough good ships that some people can make them work and prefer them to the other races, others just read the forums rather than making up their own mind. Rockets and the hawk are special cases that need looked at, it's not something that defines the whole line up of caldari ships. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.23 12:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara End of the week approaches quickly, anybody found the new stuff? Or was it yet again a CCP troll (best troll)? No changes on there last night but I wouldn't expect anything till the end of next week at the earliest, anything before then is a bonus. If Chronotis has to wait for other devs to finish their work on sisi before he can implement the changes it won't be possible for him to give an exact date. We've waited two years so a week or two wouldn't make much difference, am very much looking forward to seeing the changes though :) _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.25 08:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Sharton Well, seeing how youÆre a noob, I donÆt consider you as having an opinion at all. Off topic :P Does anyone have the phone number for proxy's care home? I think the mental patients must be getting unsupervised access to the internet again. Back on topic there's a new build on sisi, I'm getting a python error when I try to patch so no idea if it contains the rocket fix or not. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.29 18:08:00 - [61] One Year Seven Months And Six Days Farewell dear thread you have served your purpose, For the geeks, trolls and lurkers of the rocket thread circus. The borking of rockets did inspire, Some entertaining geek vs geek internet fire. Chronotis is now at the programmers anvil, Hammering the roflket meme intangible. I see his avatar's hair is somewhat gray, It wouldn't surprise if we've made his RL hair go the same way. Hopefully this was not in vain, Thank you all for your efforts to make rockets useful again. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.01 12:04:00 - [62] Originally by: VanNostrum Rockets are useful again? When did this happen??? Any stats? Try reading the stickies next time _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.

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